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	<title>Comments on: Opinion: Transit Tunnel is no Turkey</title>
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	<link>http://spacingottawa.ca/2009/12/29/transit-tunnel-is-no-turkey/</link>
	<description>Understanding the urban landscape in Canada&#039;s capital region</description>
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		<title>By: Shane Zurbrigg</title>
		<link>http://spacingottawa.ca/2009/12/29/transit-tunnel-is-no-turkey/comment-page-1/#comment-320</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Zurbrigg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 05:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spacingottawa.ca/?p=1353#comment-320</guid>
		<description>Very nicely said. This city needs some solid long-term planning - the long-term consequences of surface rail would far exceed the short-term costs of a tunnel. Hopefully those in charge manage to remove their heads from their asses long enough to realize this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very nicely said. This city needs some solid long-term planning - the long-term consequences of surface rail would far exceed the short-term costs of a tunnel. Hopefully those in charge manage to remove their heads from their asses long enough to realize this.</p>
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		<title>By: John E. Martin</title>
		<link>http://spacingottawa.ca/2009/12/29/transit-tunnel-is-no-turkey/comment-page-1/#comment-240</link>
		<dc:creator>John E. Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 15:55:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spacingottawa.ca/?p=1353#comment-240</guid>
		<description>Current BRT is not the model. Articulated BRT unlike what we have seen and more like an LRT is the model. Main arguments for LRT are comfort, low emission, ease of entry and evacuation of passengers and larger numbers.

At about $1Million dollars the cost of a BRT carrying up to 150 passengers is not only significantly lower than a train, but more closely matches passenger numbers. Design is low entry, like a train. Multiple access points with platform ticketing allow for rapid loading and unloading. Large windows for views, similar style seating for comfort. And with ultra capacitor recharging zero emission (with battery assist for storage) and no need for overhead wires or refueling depots. This technology is currently in use in Shanghai and Oregon

The main line for East-West, basically the current Transitway that already has platforms and stations in places is efficient so no need for a tunnel. This will create a savings of close to realistic estimates of $1Billion dollars.

Traffic along Slater is reduced by these higher volume buses with train style low floor access.

Garages are already set up and with electric engines not only are fuel costs incredibly reduced but service on them is minimal.

BRT is yet to be analyzed with this approach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Current BRT is not the model. Articulated BRT unlike what we have seen and more like an LRT is the model. Main arguments for LRT are comfort, low emission, ease of entry and evacuation of passengers and larger numbers.</p>
<p>At about $1Million dollars the cost of a BRT carrying up to 150 passengers is not only significantly lower than a train, but more closely matches passenger numbers. Design is low entry, like a train. Multiple access points with platform ticketing allow for rapid loading and unloading. Large windows for views, similar style seating for comfort. And with ultra capacitor recharging zero emission (with battery assist for storage) and no need for overhead wires or refueling depots. This technology is currently in use in Shanghai and Oregon</p>
<p>The main line for East-West, basically the current Transitway that already has platforms and stations in places is efficient so no need for a tunnel. This will create a savings of close to realistic estimates of $1Billion dollars.</p>
<p>Traffic along Slater is reduced by these higher volume buses with train style low floor access.</p>
<p>Garages are already set up and with electric engines not only are fuel costs incredibly reduced but service on them is minimal.</p>
<p>BRT is yet to be analyzed with this approach.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric S. Smith</title>
		<link>http://spacingottawa.ca/2009/12/29/transit-tunnel-is-no-turkey/comment-page-1/#comment-224</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric S. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 19:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spacingottawa.ca/?p=1353#comment-224</guid>
		<description>John, Ottawa&#039;s system &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; BRT:  OC Transpo has low-floor, articulated buses, and they operate them extensively through the downtown Transitway.  They also operate diesel-electric hybrids.  Is a tacky, fibreglass body kit really what we need?

Rationalizing the bus routes by terminating all of Ottawa&#039;s zillions of special express buses outside of downtown and having their riders transfer to frequent Transitway service to complete their journeys would probably clear up some of the downtown congestion without any technological changes.  Better signaling at cross streets and closing Albert and Slater to other traffic would probably improve the capacity a bit, too.  That said, there&#039;s clearly sufficient demand to justify light rail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, Ottawa's system <i>is</i> BRT:  OC Transpo has low-floor, articulated buses, and they operate them extensively through the downtown Transitway.  They also operate diesel-electric hybrids.  Is a tacky, fibreglass body kit really what we need?</p>
<p>Rationalizing the bus routes by terminating all of Ottawa's zillions of special express buses outside of downtown and having their riders transfer to frequent Transitway service to complete their journeys would probably clear up some of the downtown congestion without any technological changes.  Better signaling at cross streets and closing Albert and Slater to other traffic would probably improve the capacity a bit, too.  That said, there's clearly sufficient demand to justify light rail.</p>
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		<title>By: John E. Martin</title>
		<link>http://spacingottawa.ca/2009/12/29/transit-tunnel-is-no-turkey/comment-page-1/#comment-223</link>
		<dc:creator>John E. Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 13:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spacingottawa.ca/?p=1353#comment-223</guid>
		<description>Bus Rapid Transit does not require track, just its own express lanes as we currently have. No transfer from one mode to another, no digging up streets, no tunneling and much cheaper to maintain.
Bus Rapid Transit reduces gridlock by getting people out of their cars and having dedicated lanes for buses only.
Bus Rapid Transit is the model of the future for budget conscious cities.
Bus Rapid Transit will employ hundreds in Ontario to manufacture at home.
Bus Rapid Transit will use Hybrid technology to reduce air pollution.
Bus rapid transit, just as sexy for half the price, ongoing savings and wont break the bank. 
http://www.metrostlouis.org/crossroads/images/BRT_Bus.JPG
http://www.mdot.state.md.us/bin/n/l/bus.jpg
http://www.mdot.state.md.us/bin/b/n/max%20bus.jpg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bus Rapid Transit does not require track, just its own express lanes as we currently have. No transfer from one mode to another, no digging up streets, no tunneling and much cheaper to maintain.<br />
Bus Rapid Transit reduces gridlock by getting people out of their cars and having dedicated lanes for buses only.<br />
Bus Rapid Transit is the model of the future for budget conscious cities.<br />
Bus Rapid Transit will employ hundreds in Ontario to manufacture at home.<br />
Bus Rapid Transit will use Hybrid technology to reduce air pollution.<br />
Bus rapid transit, just as sexy for half the price, ongoing savings and wont break the bank.<br />
<a href="http://www.metrostlouis.org/crossroads/images/BRT_Bus.JPG" rel="nofollow">http://www.metrostlouis.org/crossroads/images/BRT_Bus.JPG</a><br />
<a href="http://www.mdot.state.md.us/bin/n/l/bus.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.mdot.state.md.us/bin/n/l/bus.jpg</a><br />
<a href="http://www.mdot.state.md.us/bin/b/n/max%20bus.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.mdot.state.md.us/bin/b/n/max%20bus.jpg</a></p>
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		<title>By: Eric S. Smith</title>
		<link>http://spacingottawa.ca/2009/12/29/transit-tunnel-is-no-turkey/comment-page-1/#comment-195</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric S. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 18:47:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spacingottawa.ca/?p=1353#comment-195</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;...it includes stations and platforms (which will be needed at the surface too, and may have to be located on what is now private property that may have to be acquired by the city); signalling (which will be way more complex and expensive on the surface as it will have to accomodate private cars, trucks, and bus movements too), etc.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

On-surface, streetcar-style operations wouldn&#039;t require stations and platforms any more elaborate than the ones that currently exist for the buses, and the signalling would be traffic lights.

That you characterize digging up the street as a &quot;unique cost&quot; of surface rail as compared to subways puzzles me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>...it includes stations and platforms (which will be needed at the surface too, and may have to be located on what is now private property that may have to be acquired by the city); signalling (which will be way more complex and expensive on the surface as it will have to accomodate private cars, trucks, and bus movements too), etc.</p></blockquote>
<p>On-surface, streetcar-style operations wouldn't require stations and platforms any more elaborate than the ones that currently exist for the buses, and the signalling would be traffic lights.</p>
<p>That you characterize digging up the street as a "unique cost" of surface rail as compared to subways puzzles me.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Drake</title>
		<link>http://spacingottawa.ca/2009/12/29/transit-tunnel-is-no-turkey/comment-page-1/#comment-194</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Drake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 04:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spacingottawa.ca/?p=1353#comment-194</guid>
		<description>BRT does not solve the gridlock problem at all.  It actually contributes to it.  BRT is more flexible than rail, but once a city reaches a certain size, the flexibility become a cause of congestion.  A bus stop that has 20 or more routes stopping at it introduces incredible delays at peak times as buses queue to reach the station.

The solution is to get rid of the multiplicity of routes, which eliminates the benefit of a small city BRT (transfer-less express service from many points to many points), leaving one with the simple math of lower initial cost, higher operating cost, and reduced reliability in comparison to LRT.

Ottawa has reached the point where LRT is now required.  This means a redesign of our transit system to embrace a high capacity core network and transfer stations that serve outlying bus routes.  It will require transfers by riders, but we&#039;ve already reached the point where that&#039;s required for future growth in the BRT anyway.  And users are more tolerant of bus-train transfers than bus-bus transfers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BRT does not solve the gridlock problem at all.  It actually contributes to it.  BRT is more flexible than rail, but once a city reaches a certain size, the flexibility become a cause of congestion.  A bus stop that has 20 or more routes stopping at it introduces incredible delays at peak times as buses queue to reach the station.</p>
<p>The solution is to get rid of the multiplicity of routes, which eliminates the benefit of a small city BRT (transfer-less express service from many points to many points), leaving one with the simple math of lower initial cost, higher operating cost, and reduced reliability in comparison to LRT.</p>
<p>Ottawa has reached the point where LRT is now required.  This means a redesign of our transit system to embrace a high capacity core network and transfer stations that serve outlying bus routes.  It will require transfers by riders, but we've already reached the point where that's required for future growth in the BRT anyway.  And users are more tolerant of bus-train transfers than bus-bus transfers.</p>
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		<title>By: Jarek</title>
		<link>http://spacingottawa.ca/2009/12/29/transit-tunnel-is-no-turkey/comment-page-1/#comment-191</link>
		<dc:creator>Jarek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 23:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spacingottawa.ca/?p=1353#comment-191</guid>
		<description>That picture definitely looks like it has a guideway if not an outright track.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That picture definitely looks like it has a guideway if not an outright track.</p>
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		<title>By: John E. Martin</title>
		<link>http://spacingottawa.ca/2009/12/29/transit-tunnel-is-no-turkey/comment-page-1/#comment-183</link>
		<dc:creator>John E. Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 02:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spacingottawa.ca/?p=1353#comment-183</guid>
		<description>bus rapid transit using hybrid technology. cheaper, more efficient, no tunnel required an certainly no track. Look at the picture of modern bus rapid transit and see if you can tell the difference. Same length, low access and just as sexy for half the price.
http://tram.mcgill.ca/Teaching/URBP619/casestudies/BRT/images/brtbus.jpg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bus rapid transit using hybrid technology. cheaper, more efficient, no tunnel required an certainly no track. Look at the picture of modern bus rapid transit and see if you can tell the difference. Same length, low access and just as sexy for half the price.<br />
<a href="http://tram.mcgill.ca/Teaching/URBP619/casestudies/BRT/images/brtbus.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://tram.mcgill.ca/Teaching/URBP619/casestudies/BRT/images/brtbus.jpg</a></p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://spacingottawa.ca/2009/12/29/transit-tunnel-is-no-turkey/comment-page-1/#comment-180</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spacingottawa.ca/?p=1353#comment-180</guid>
		<description>Hi Duncan - thanks for the reply. (I already do subscribe to your blog!)
I guess I can see how an elevated train wouldn&#039;t work and would probably cause some problems in an already usually-desolate downtown core at night especially. And I find the point about disruptions of a surface-level system blocks away from Parliament very compelling. From what I&#039;ve read in the Citizen and a few select Ottawa blogs (which is the main way I keep in touch with goings-on in my hometown), those concerns haven&#039;t gotten the airing they deserve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Duncan - thanks for the reply. (I already do subscribe to your blog!)<br />
I guess I can see how an elevated train wouldn't work and would probably cause some problems in an already usually-desolate downtown core at night especially. And I find the point about disruptions of a surface-level system blocks away from Parliament very compelling. From what I've read in the Citizen and a few select Ottawa blogs (which is the main way I keep in touch with goings-on in my hometown), those concerns haven't gotten the airing they deserve.</p>
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		<title>By: Duncan MacGregor</title>
		<link>http://spacingottawa.ca/2009/12/29/transit-tunnel-is-no-turkey/comment-page-1/#comment-178</link>
		<dc:creator>Duncan MacGregor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 01:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spacingottawa.ca/?p=1353#comment-178</guid>
		<description>A similar saving also *may* be realized by shortening the first stage (at least) of the LRT line to end at Hurdman.  Omitting the Hurdman-Blair portion may save *at*least* $300 million, as part of the extra expense (announced in late September) was a realignment of the route at the Train Transitway station.

That said, I am skeptical that elimination of the tunnel would save just $300 million, as I have heard estimates of *twice* that amount for the cost of the tunnel just by itself.  Does your estimate assume an LRT-only tunnel, does it allow for trolleybuses, or could it support diesel buses?  [My own understanding is that a tunnel that allows buses would cost up to $1 billion to dig, due to the necessary addition of large exhaust (ventilation) towers at the surface for safety reasons.  Restricting access to electric-only vehicles reduces the cost of ventilation considerably (though I doubt that would cut the overall cost of the tunnel in half).]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A similar saving also *may* be realized by shortening the first stage (at least) of the LRT line to end at Hurdman.  Omitting the Hurdman-Blair portion may save *at*least* $300 million, as part of the extra expense (announced in late September) was a realignment of the route at the Train Transitway station.</p>
<p>That said, I am skeptical that elimination of the tunnel would save just $300 million, as I have heard estimates of *twice* that amount for the cost of the tunnel just by itself.  Does your estimate assume an LRT-only tunnel, does it allow for trolleybuses, or could it support diesel buses?  [My own understanding is that a tunnel that allows buses would cost up to $1 billion to dig, due to the necessary addition of large exhaust (ventilation) towers at the surface for safety reasons.  Restricting access to electric-only vehicles reduces the cost of ventilation considerably (though I doubt that would cut the overall cost of the tunnel in half).]</p>
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